Talk:Courtesy titles in the United Kingdom

Sons of Earls and Viscounts

Why are the children of Viscounts and younger sons of Earls style as "The Honourable" instead of Lords and Ladies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.239.183.11 (talk) 06:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Married Daughters

The second sentence of the first paragraph of 'Married Daughters' does not make obvious sense - it's talking about someone marrying a commoner, and about her husband's right to 'the style', but what style? Mdrb55 (talk) 23:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Children of Earls

Why are daughters of Earls called ‘Lady Jane Smith’, but sons of Earls are called ‘The Honourable James Smith’? (except the heir, who is Viscount Something). Every other rank, the kids are either lords and ladies, or all Honourables. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:44B4:9FB0:E2EB:61A5 (talk) 02:26, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I have seen some evidence that the eldest son of an earl can be "Lord James". In English common law there is no seniority among sisters, so all daughters have equal rank. —Tamfang (talk) 02:54, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

And, more specifically, daughters share the rank of their eldest brother, whereas younger brothers have a lower rank. The distinction here appears to be that eldest sons (and therefore daughters) of earls rank higher than barons/baronesses (and so are lords/ladies), whereas younger sons rank lower than barons (and so are not). Proteus (Talk) 11:30, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

What if there's a higher non hereditary peerage, and lower hereditary ones?

Prince Edward the Earl of Wessex was elevated to the Duke of Edinburgh, but only as a non-hereditary life appointment, and it's being reported that his heir apparent upgraded from the courtesy title Viscount Severn to Earl of Wessex, but if he's not in line to inherit the higher dukedom, wouldn't he need a Writ of acceleration to use the Earl of Wessex title? How does it work here? On a potentially related note, I also see that the above question about children of life peers was never definitively answered. Gecko G (talk) 01:39, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I wonder whether there's any precedent. The only previous life peerages higher than Baron that come to mind are two dukedoms for royal mistresses, who had no legitimate sons to get courtesy titles! When Edward dies it will be weird to read "James, Earl of Wessex, succeeds his father as Earl of Wessex". —Tamfang (talk) 19:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, and it is very difficult to work out precedents from the Royal Family anyway, since their use of titles is so inconsistent. Take Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy, for example, whose style makes absolutely no sense: if she held no royal style, she wouldn't be "The Honourable Lady Ogilvy" but "Lady Alexandra Ogilvy" as the daughter of a duke, and even if you ignored her inherited styles completely she'd still have the latter style as a Lady of the Garter. And I suspect there is no other precedent here: I certainly can't think of anyone other than Prince Edward's son who has been the eldest son of someone holding both a hereditary peerage and a life peerage of higher rank. Proteus (Talk) 12:12, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

History of courtesy titles

I was hoping to find some account of the history of courtesy titles, but I don't see much, if anything, relevant in the present article. In the OED the first citation for the term 'courtesy title' itself is from the 1840s. I suspect that the use of courtesy titles in England doesn't go back much before 1800, at least in its present elaborate form, but I am willing to be corrected. The 1839 edition of Debrett's Peerage gives a list of 'Titles generally borne by peers' eldest sons', but that seems to be about it.2A00:23C5:6492:8D01:556A:9E44:EA94:B52D (talk) 17:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

To answer my own question, I find that John Selden's 'Titles of Honor [sic]', 1672, p.636, states that the eldest sons of Dukes are styled by the titles of their fathers' earldoms; and those of Marquesses and Earls by their fathers' Baronies or Viscounties. Younger sons of Dukes and Marquesses are called Lords, in the style 'My Lord (Christian name) (surname)'. Selden does not mention the use of 'Honorable', or the position of daughters, not in this passage of the book anyway. So at least part of the system of courtesy titles goes back to the 17th century of not earlier.2A00:23C5:6492:8D01:50CE:DB4B:7A78:7DE0 (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I would also be interested in this. As to courtesy peerages, these seem to have developed sometime around the end of the 15th century or the beginning of the 16th century: for example, at the beginning of the 15th century, you have the eldest son of the Earl of Northumberland being simply Sir Henry Percy, and as late as the 1560s you have the eldest son of the Earl of Oxford being simply Sir Aubrey de Vere, but by the 16th century you appear to have eldest sons of the Earls of Oxford being styled Lord Bolebec or Bulbeck and eldest sons of the Earl of Arundel being styled Lord Maltravers. A potential intermediary stage seems to have been the creation of titles for heirs: so the eldest son of the 1st Duke of Norfolk was created Earl of Surrey in his own right in 1483. As for the daughters and younger sons, it is not clear when/how the current system developed and solidified, but the lord/lady system for the children of senior peers seems to have been in place by the early 16th century since such titles appear to have been in use by the children of various Dukes of Norfolk and Suffolk in the reign of Henry VIII. I have no idea, though, when "the Honourable" for others developed (or, indeed, when peers themselves became "the Right Honourable" etc). The situation is not helped by various writers assuming that the current system has always been in place and bandying such titles about anachronistically, so unless you're looking at a primary source you can't be sure that the use of a courtesy title actually reflects contemporary usage. Proteus (Talk) 12:04, 18 February 2025 (UTC)